Kemal Okuyan speaks to Russian journalist: 'There is no unity, there is fragmentation'

Kemal Okuyan, General Secretary of the Communist Party of Turkey (TKP), made assessments regarding the state of the socialist movement in the world and in Turkey, and the differing attitudes within the world communist movement regarding the Ukraine-Russia war.

How do you evaluate the development and expectations of the left movement in Turkey and the world right now? What has changed for communists in Turkey after the elections?

First of all, we need to rescue the concept of "left" from this ambiguity. I do not see German Social Democracy as left, for example. But yes, there is such a perception. Two things can be done against this. Either we will fight a struggle for hegemony on the "left" and explain to society the fact that such bourgeois movements and ideologies are not left, or we will not use the concept of "left." Frankly, we are discussing this in Turkey as well.

The TKP is using the concept of "left" less and less. We are communists, and this is sufficiently explanatory and distinctive. On the other hand, of course, it is impossible in reality to separate political actors with absolute boundaries. There is a gray area that sometimes narrows and sometimes expands. In this sense, what you said is generally true. The left is generally regressing all over the world. But why? Could it be that the left is regressing because it is not left?

According to us, this is exactly the truth. Here, the greatest responsibility, frankly, lies with the communists. The struggle against liberal and social democratic tendencies has been underestimated. The urgency of socialism and revolution was put aside by looking at the existing balance of power, and the struggle for positions within the system was fetishized. Moreover, success criteria began to be determined by the politics of the establishment. This produces the right, not the left. This is the reason why the far-right is also gaining strength on the streets. Capitalism is constantly producing different types of crises. Poverty, unemployment, injustice, police brutality, immigrants…

If you cannot produce radical and revolutionary answers to all of these, others will exploit these problems. The parliamentary elections in Turkey offer interesting data in terms of what we have said. The TKP received an equally absurd vote in an election that was absurd, meaningless, and held society captive with helplessness and blackmail. Anyone who follows Turkey even a little bit realizes that the TKP has an influence far beyond the votes it received. Indeed, after the election, the TKP was talked about and discussed more, and its organization accelerated. Therefore, we see that the bourgeois parliament is losing importance and reputation in the social sphere as well.

The TKP continues its struggle. Undoubtedly, we evaluated the election results and discussed the reasons why our political influence did not turn into votes. The TKP is not a party that will brazenly say "elections are not important." However, we are not a party that will question ourselves based on election results either. Our party continues to defend its own principles and program with self-confidence.

We see that movements developing with the demand for social justice in the world are divided both geographically and ideologically and are focusing more on local problems. Many movements have turned into "closed clubs." What can communists, Marxists, and left-wing activists in different countries of the world do to increase communication and international dialogue among themselves?

Discussion and dialogue are not a solution on their own, of course. In fact, if we are talking about sterile and fruitless discussions that will cause revolutionaries to close in on themselves, this has no meaning. However, if a discussion is organized that will encourage us, force us to be honest, and encourage real political struggles, it will be different. The way to do this is to stay away from impositions and templates. And also, we must not repeat the mistake of bypassing our points of divergence in the name of "unity and diplomacy" or ignoring them.

There is already no "unity" right now. For there to be unity, there must be a common direction. On the contrary, there is fragmentation. I miss the lively discussion environment of the times when I entered political struggle at a nearly childhood age. I have to say that I even miss the expression of some views that I do not agree with at all in a consistent manner within themselves. However, the issue is not our personal needs. It is necessary for political parties and circles that are in communication with each other for various reasons to encourage a real, lively, and creative discussion.

For differences and commonalities to be understood in a healthy way. If this does not happen, just as healthy partnerships and unions cannot be established, a healthy separation cannot be experienced either. After all that has happened, speaking by rote or a kind of cowardice like "let's be united, we are all leftists" is of no use. At least for communists. We need to be brave, understanding, respectful, outspoken, and creative. The TKP is striving for the creation of such a climate while maintaining its own position.

What is happening in Ukraine has divided the left movement even within the borders of individual countries; different groups have started to take not class-based but "geopolitical" positions, such as "pro-Russian" or "pro-Ukrainian"… Now let's talk about these positions.

I think even those who follow a pro-Russian line know that Russia is a capitalist country. If the problem were the socio-economic character of Russia, our job would be easy. However, the issue is more complex. Some believe, or pretend to believe, that the current government in Russia will gradually enter a socialist orientation due to objective and subjective reasons. I feel Marxist enough not to believe that socialism will be realized in a developed country with large resources like Russia through politicians changing their minds.

Look, social state practices may come to the fore or regress in Russia over time. The share of the state sector in the economy may increase or decrease. These do not change the class character of the country. I am not saying they are unimportant. We are following, examining, and evaluating them closely. But we do not enter into an expectation that Putin or his circle will reach the conclusion that "socialism is good." Class struggle is not like that. The place we really look at is the Russian working class. Some, on the other hand, say that Russia is capitalist, even that it has an imperialist character, but that one should take Russia's side in the Ukraine war.

There are those who say this is a war of defense, those who say this is an anti-imperialist war, and we can add those who handle the subject in terms of the struggle against fascism. We have a basic starting point of not approaching any capitalist country or class with empathy. Communists cannot postpone the struggle against the bourgeois class in their own countries. If this principle is not cared about, we can find countless excuses to take sides in the imperialist world in any situation, to support this or that bourgeois party.

For example, today we find it wrong to take sides in the war between Ukraine and Russia. But this is not because we identify or equate the two sides, or because we gloss over the struggle against NATO, which is the real power behind Ukraine. No. I am saying it very clearly, if the issue were a matter of preference, it is obvious who we would prefer. Turkey is a NATO member and all of humanity has suffered a lot from NATO and US imperialism. The capitalist class in Russia does not pose a threat of this magnitude today. However, the issue is not really the answer to the question of who we would prefer.

The issue is to make revolutionary moves in the capitalist world. Today, in Russia or Ukraine or other countries, the working masses need to take a position that questions capitalist exploitation and tries to destroy it. What I am saying is also valid for Iran and for Turkey. Otherwise, we will continue forever by making choices about who is better and who is worse.

The current Ukrainian government has banned many parties, including 11 communist parties as well as various opposition political parties. The Security Service of Ukraine has repeatedly published photos of "criminal evidence" such as Lenin busts, red flags, and Marx's books found during searches. Decommunization is the official policy of Ukraine. Even the UN Security Council has been informed about the repressions against communists, socialists, and trade unionists. So why do Ukraine supporters within the European left not "notice" this? What is the role of the Ukrainian authorities in the formation of such a "left lobby"?

Here is a difference for you. Today, a pro-Russian stance is wrong. At least for now, we can evaluate it as such. But a pro-Ukrainian stance is very clearly counter-revolutionary. I am saying this without entering into the debate of whether the administration in Ukraine is fascist or not. It is nonsense to say that Ukraine is waging a war of freedom. Just as it was a betrayal to support the bloody military operations carried out against Yugoslavia in the past, this is the same. Yes, there is an occupation, and communists fight against occupation. However, what we are experiencing cannot be reduced to an occupation.

The subject has a long story that includes the collapse of the Soviet Union. Actually, what should really be focused on is the 1991 counter-revolution. The thesis that "Ukraine was fine until 2014, then a pro-NATO coup took place" is not correct. The roots of the coup in 2014 should be sought in 1991. Each of the "independent states" that emerged after the dissolution of the Soviet Union has a legitimacy problem. Not just from our perspective. Ukraine is a stronghold of fascist movements, anti-communism, racism, pro-NATOism, and militarism.

One must congratulate the Putin administration for enabling such a dark Ukrainian administration to take on the role of a "freedom hero"! So where should we look? We should focus not on which powers support the bourgeois governments in Kiev and Moscow, but on which powers are creating a revolutionary and independent strategy.

While I am at it, while I strongly protest the hysterical campaigns launched against communism and the symbols of communism in Ukraine today, I must remind you that such campaigns have been carried out in Russia itself since 1991. The hammer and sickle emblem removed by Ukrainian reactionaries does not represent today's Russia, but the world communist movement and the USSR. Let us not forget that the biggest blow to that emblem came from Russia.

What could be the right strategy for the left regarding Russia?

It is a big mistake to move away from the idea of the urgency of the socialist revolution just because the balance of power does not allow it today. The imperialist system is experiencing a massive blockage, a deep political-ideological crisis, and we are still in a meaningless debate about whether Trump or Biden is more preferable, whether Erdoğan is truly anti-imperialist, or whether Russian capitalism will evolve for the better. Even if communism in a country is reduced to a single person today, that person's duty is to focus on the task of destroying capitalism. This needs to be patiently explained to the working masses, organized in this direction, fought for, and preparations made to evaluate the opportunities that will arise.

It must now be accepted that goals such as "let democracy be established first, let us gain some rights first, let us enter parliament first, let us push back fascism first" mean self-deception. I am not proposing adventurism. I am talking about direction, program, and strategy. The greatest success of the Bolsheviks was that they thought about revolution and seizing political power even in their weakest moments. And their greatest luck was that there were no mechanisms in Russia until 1917 that would seduce them or tie them to the order. When an environment that would confuse all Russian revolutionaries emerged in February 1917, Lenin made a unique intervention. The April Theses should be read a bit like this. If this intervention had been delayed by a few months, the October Revolution might not have happened.

The President of the Republic of Turkey is regularly making international initiatives. Has the time not come for Turkish communists to also make international initiatives under these conditions? Or perhaps even to form an international platform that will provide communication among left-wing forces all over the world?

We are an ambitious party, but we cannot move away from reality. We truly believe in the importance of humility and the idea of equality among communists. We do not aggrandize anyone in our eyes, we do not boast to anyone, we do not look down on anyone, we do not remain in anyone's shadow. We learn from others, we do not imitate anyone. We do not. It is useless. If others benefit from our experience, that is also a good thing. The weight of Turkish capitalism in the international arena has increased in recent years. This is a clear fact. Therefore, our responsibility is increasing. Because we cannot wait while Turkish capitalism increases its influence in economic, political, and ideological terms.

We are communists, we love our country, we will never betray our country and our people. In this sense, we are patriots. However, standing against the foreign policy practice determined by the interests of the capitalist class in Turkey is our internationalist responsibility. This is one. Secondly, we think that what has been experienced in Turkey, especially in the last 20 years, contains lessons that are interesting for the whole world. We want to share these lessons and the conclusions we have drawn more. We do not have a strange claim that "Turkey is asked of us."

We are also trying to follow and understand the evaluations of communists in other countries about our country. The TKP will do everything to discuss and establish dialogue in a constructive, friendly, and creative way. We are doing this not for the sake of mental exercise or sport, but to pave the way for the world revolution, which is our common cause. Our relations in the international arena are developing. We are trying to develop a sincere approach within the framework of outspokenness and mutual respect. If we go beyond this, even if unintentionally, we would like to be told. Returning to your question, the TKP will do its best for the revival of Marxist-Leninist thought and practice.