Foreign Minister Fidan: Trump's Gaza plan is 'a lapse of reason'

Foreign Minister Hakan Fidan gave an interview to the Al-Muqabalah (Interview) program, hosted by journalist Ali el-Zafiri on the Qatar-based Al Jazeera Arabic. During the program, Minister Fidan made statements on many current issues, including Turkish foreign policy, recent developments in the Middle East, Israel's actions in southern Syria, the status of the ceasefire in Gaza, negotiations regarding Ukraine, and the civil war in Sudan.

"WE DO NOT FIND HOSTILITY BETWEEN MUSLIM COUNTRIES TO BE RIGHT"

In response to a question regarding Turkish foreign policy and Turkey's approach to neighboring countries, Minister Fidan said, "There has been an AK Party administration in Turkey for 22 years under the leadership of Mr. Recep Tayyip Erdoğan. Our President has truly very strong leadership. In certain periods, we have brought different policies to the agenda in parallel with regional changes and international shifts. However, in essence, our policy preferences and methods have always been the same. First, what we want to see is for regional countries to take ownership of their own problems. We, as regional countries, should solve our own regional problems in great solidarity. Otherwise, when a hegemon comes to the region from the outside, it produces a great cost. Most of the time, there is a big difference between when it arrives and when it leaves. Generally, when it leaves, there are more problems. Therefore, regional countries must now solve their own regional problems in great solidarity. Second, beyond regional ownership, there is the win-win policy. Our President emphasizes this very often. Now, it would not be right to think only of your own interests. You must also think of the interests of your neighbors and other countries, and you must produce a policy that takes everyone's interests into account. This is our second motto. Third, we frankly do not find it right for regional countries, for Muslim countries, to be in a relationship of hostility with each other. That is, our region, just like the European Union, just like in other international platforms, needs to be able to demonstrate solidarity within itself, to be able to handle its economic problems, development problems, and security problems in modern times, and we are frankly advancing our foreign policy in this direction," he said.

"THE PRIORITY IS TO STOP THE WARS"

In response to a question regarding the priorities of Turkish foreign policy, Minister Fidan replied, "At the point we have reached now, the number one priority of Turkish foreign policy is the calming of conflicts, the stopping of wars, and the elimination of the environment of instability in our region, including the Middle East, the Caucasus, the Balkans, the Black Sea, the Mediterranean, and the Aegean. When this happens, it becomes easier to bring economic development and basic services to the public."

"WE COULD NOT KILL SECTARIANISM"

Upon being asked what the problem in the Middle East is, Fidan said, "When we look at the basic points, of course, there is a historical background. Second, the age of the regional countries as nation-states is a bit earlier. That is, there are states that gained their nation-state identity after the First World War and the Second World War, and there are those that were a bit earlier than that. Now, it has taken some time for both the balances and the system within these states to settle and for them to resolve their historical problems with each other and develop communication with each other as modern actors. In essence, at the point we have reached today, I think that the regional countries, whether it be the Gulf, Jordan, Egypt, Turkey, Iran, Iraq, or Syria, have a very great potential for cooperation. Everyone has frankly seen where one can and cannot go by fighting with each other and cooperating with a hegemon. Now we need to come together, solve our own problems all together, and create a platform where we are sure of each other in our own region. Of course, there are a few problem areas that remain open in the region right now. At the forefront of these is a major problem created by Israeli expansionism. Regional countries are under a great crisis. Second, unfortunately, we still could not kill sectarianism in our region. That is, sectarianism, the Sunni-Shia divide, still continues as a major problem in the heart of the Islamic world and in our region. The fact that this historical phenomenon is becoming a preference factor in the foreign policies of Arab and Muslim countries that have become nation-states today is actually a bit of our fault. That is, as Muslims of the 21st century, we should have overcome this problem by now, but it still has not been overcome," he said.

"WE ARE PURSUING A RESPECTFUL FOREIGN POLICY"

Evaluating the claims that the three major actors in the region are Turkey, Israel, and Iran and that the region is shaped by these three countries, Fidan said, "I do not agree with this proposition very much, frankly. That is, one needs to look at which actor influences the region to what extent and in what way. We, as much as possible, evaluating the attitudes of other actors, I want to say this: We are pursuing a foreign policy that is constructive, does not threaten the security of others, is respectful of everyone's territorial integrity, aims for economic development, and shows respect for everyone's national will. Now here, on the other hand, the presence of terrorist organizations that have reigned in the region since the Cold War period, especially the PKK, is unfortunately a reality. There is a struggle we are waging against this. There is an environment left over from the occupation in Iraq. There is an environment left over from the civil war in Syria. Now, one needs to take all of these into account and take a step. But at the end of the day, our goal is to see a region where conflicts are reduced, there is no terrorism, everyone's territorial integrity is ensured, and Palestinians have a state," he said.

"COME AND ACCEPT THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION"

Upon being asked about Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's statements regarding southern Syria, Fidan said, "Now, these statements are extremely unfortunate statements. In fact, they are statements that overlap with the policy that the Netanyahu government has been pursuing from the beginning. Unfortunately, the Netanyahu government sees Israel's security not in a two-state solution, but in Israel's expansion and expansionism in the region. We tell him, as Muslim countries, as Arab countries, we all say together that now is the time. Come and accept the two-state solution. Make peace with both Arab countries and other Muslim countries. Feel your security, and let others feel theirs. However, let alone giving a state to the Palestinians, we see that they have plans to annex Palestinian lands and, beyond that, to occupy Lebanon and Syria. And while doing all this, frankly, they do it under the name of Israel's security. It does not stop there; it looks very closely at the defense, security, and policy issues, and economic issues of Egypt, Jordan, and even other Arab countries beyond this place, and all countries that it sees as a potential threat. It also shows sensitivity regarding these being suppressed as much as possible, not moving forward, and not acquiring certain capabilities. You cannot carry this balance forever. You cannot do this until the end of time. Now the US is helping you in this regard, in this wrong policy, but this policy is not a sustainable policy. Instead, come, the Arab countries are ready, Turkey is ready, with a two-state solution, you both feel comfortable and safe, and let the region be comfortable. Such occupation movements, such broad occupation policies, and policies of bringing under control produce very dangerous results," he said.

"ENSURING SYRIA'S TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY IS IMPORTANT"

In response to a question about whether the issue of a security mechanism that could be created in southern Syria has been discussed with Israeli and Syrian officials, Fidan replied, "We have not discussed such issues with Israel. Syria is already taking steps towards ensuring its own national unity and integrity. Ensuring Syria's territorial integrity is extremely important. Great duties fall upon the Arab League, the Organization of Islamic Cooperation, and the United Nations in this regard. We are all showing our sensitivity on this issue together. The annexation of Syria's territorial integrity, the PKK on one side and Israeli intervention in the south, is not an acceptable intervention. This brings greater instability to the region."

"I DO NOT THINK THEY WILL ALLOW ISRAELI OCCUPATION"

In his response to the question of what will happen if Israel's presence in southern Syria continues or advances, Fidan said, "The Syrian people are a very brave people. We have seen in the last 15 years what great sacrifices they have made for their own freedom and for their honor. Millions of people were displaced, hundreds of thousands of people were martyred. Whoever sets their eyes on their own homeland, I do not think the Syrian nation, a noble nation, will allow this occupation, especially the PKK occupation and the Israeli occupation, today just as it has in history. There are more than 20 million Syrians. All of them are patriotic children. Why don't they go and occupy someone else's country, but others come and occupy their country?" he said.

ABOUT THE LAVROV MEETING

Upon being asked about what was discussed in the meeting held yesterday with Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov, Minister Fidan said, "Regarding Syria, you know that Syria and Russia have a history. In essence, there are relations developed based on this history, social relations, economic relations, and security relations that developed during the Assad era. Now, in the new period, especially the Russian military bases there and other economic issues, etc. There were discussions on where this will go, what can be, and what should be done with these," he said.

"WE SEE SIGNS THAT THE UKRAINE WAR IS COMING TO AN END"

In response to the question of whether the negotiations between Russia and the US and the issues of the war in Ukraine came to the agenda in the meeting with Lavrov, Fidan said, "We discussed these as well. They gave information about the meetings they held in Riyadh. We had frankly received this information from our American friends as well. In particular, we see signs that the Ukraine war is coming to an end. Here, under what conditions the parties will go to a ceasefire, how they will do it, what will happen, all of these are currently being discussed. What we see is that the US side will appoint a representative, then the Russians will appoint a representative. Political will has been formed on both sides. You know, Mr. President Trump, President Putin, both sides have formed a will to 'let's talk now, let's solve this issue.' Now they are starting to talk. They are first establishing the mechanism of a conversation. On the other hand, there is a negotiation process continuing with Kellogg, carried out with both the Ukrainians and the Europeans. My understanding is that the Americans will collect all this data and then work on a roadmap. They will propose these to the parties. The parties, whether it be the Russian side, the Ukrainian side, or the Europeans, will certainly have a request for change or a proposal for this map. I think the next few months will pass very quickly and intensely in this respect, in the name of stopping the Ukraine war," he said.

"EUROPE IS ENTERING A SECURITY CRISIS"

Evaluating el-Zafiri's comment that the US communicating directly with Russia regarding the war in Ukraine disturbs Europe, Fidan said, "Europe had essentially developed a military plan in Ukraine by setting out with the US. Now, in an equation where the US is not present, all the methods and capacities that Europe has mobilized, both political and military, are suddenly left idle. As a result, when the US leaves the equation, we see a Europe left alone with Russia. This, of course, means the shaking of the foundations of European security. Because there is a security alliance they formed with the Americans. You know, there is a European Union established under the security umbrella provided by the US to Europe, there are European democracies, there is the European economy. In a world where all of this is not present, Europeans are entering a massive security crisis, and we see that they are currently discussing this. Now, the US position on the Ukraine issue, the position that Mr. Trump initially put forward, the position of 'we must normalize relations with the Russians, we must stop the war, the death of millions of people must end now,' sends a very different message to Europe at this point. Now, the Europeans, we saw this after the election in Germany, the winning leader Mr. Merz also said it. Perhaps by summer, the European Union or European countries may want to find themselves within another security structure, outside of NATO," he said.

"OUR OFFICIAL VIEW IS EUROPEAN UNION MEMBERSHIP"

Answering the question of whether Europe seems to have become dependent on Turkey again in this process and whether the issue of Turkey's EU membership will come to the agenda again, Fidan said, "Regarding the European Union, Turkey's view, our President also expressed it after the cabinet meeting yesterday, is still officially European Union membership. Our perspective on this issue has not been changed by the political will. But you know, the Europeans have an issue of not including Turkey due to their identity policies. Now, in the new period, under new conditions, will they reconsider this? I hope they do," he said.

Upon being asked whether Turkey's need to join the EU has changed over the years, Fidan said, "It is like this: conditions teach you to be self-sufficient, to develop different capacities, and to form different alliances. That is, if we had been a member of the European Union in 2007, 2008, when relations were at their peak, in the period before (former French President) Sarkozy, together with other countries, it would have been a different environment. But we lived for 10-15 years in an environment where you were more open to economic and other political crises, security crises when you were not a member of the European Union. Turkey saw wars in its region, it saw attempts including a coup attempt within itself. Against all of these, thank God, we showed success against both economic crises, political crises, and security crises. Here, of course, strong political leadership plays a big role. Now, because those in Europe established a great solidarity platform themselves, in a world provided by the US, whether there are strong political leaders or not does not matter much when there is no crisis. But in a country like Turkey, that is, if you have to exist in the region on your own, if you are going to win yourself, if you are going to solve your own problems, you need a very strong political leadership and a stable regime. Therefore, this political leadership that our President has been carrying out with great foresight for 22 years has perhaps been our greatest gain. Now think of it this way. We solved all our infrastructure problems without taking money from European Union funds. We became a G-20 member without our oil or gas. That is, we became the owners of these by producing, exporting, and trading entirely with our own industry. We kept our own political system, our integrity, and our security together. Without anyone fighting against terrorism with us, on the contrary, even the US, which we know as the strongest partner, you know, is now supporting the PKK. Now perhaps Mr. Trump will abandon that policy. But in a place where all of this happened, our pursuing a self-sufficient policy and having these capabilities happened, thank God, because of these crises we were left alone with," he said.

Upon host el-Zafiri stating that he understood from this statement that Turkey is less dependent on Europe, Fidan said, "That is, we need good cooperation, bilateral cooperation. But we do not define it through dependency, frankly. It would be good if it were there, but it is not the end of the world if it is not," he said.

"ANXIETY PREVAILS REGARDING NETANYAHU"

In his response to the question of whether it is in question for Israel to withdraw from the ceasefire agreement in Gaza, Fidan emphasized that he hopes the agreement will continue, saying, "You know, a genocide took place before the eyes of the whole world. Nearly 60 thousand people, mostly women and children, were massacred. This must not happen again. But unfortunately, there is such an anxiety. There is a prevailing anxiety that Netanyahu will restart the war as soon as he gets all the hostages. The threat, terror, and great impact that this issue creates in the region, of course, is significant. We need to solve this as soon as possible. For that, the international community, especially the US, Europe, and the Permanent Members of the United Nations Security Council, including Russia and China, must exert the necessary pressure on Israel. The genocidal policy pursued by Israel not only causes great damage in the region, not only traumatizes the psychology of the peoples of the region, but also made the already fragile structure of the international system even more fragile. This incredibly weakens everyone's belief in the international system. We are moving towards a point where everyone feels the need to protect themselves more and which paves the way for possible wars and conflicts. This is not a good thing for humanity. This must be stopped," he said.

Emphasizing that it would not be good for the war to restart, Fidan said, "Here, of course, especially Egypt, Jordan, and the Gulf countries need to develop an attitude. That is, they need to develop an attitude against Israel. These attitudes are not tolerable," he spoke.

"TRUMP'S GAZA PLAN IS A LAPSE OF REASON"

Fidan, who received a question regarding Turkey's view on US President Trump's Gaza plan, said, "It is not an acceptable proposal, of course. One should not take it too seriously. Our stance here is clear. We cannot accept such a proposal. Egypt's stance is clear. Jordan's stance is clear. The Gulf countries' stance is clear. The stance of the Arab countries and the Islamic world is clear. The general world, the European Union. That is, there are probably two countries in the world that would defend this. One is the US, the other is Israel. Apart from that, the rest of the world is against it. This is a lapse of reason. But because it started such a discussion, in response to the question 'Well, you do not accept this, what should be in return?', I know that our Arab brothers are working on a plan. I know that this also has certain stages. I know that a plan is being worked on regarding the reconstruction, management, administration, and security issues of Gaza," he said.

"HAMAS IS AN IDEOLOGY BORN OF ISRAELI OCCUPATION"

In response to a question about what Hamas's role in Gaza will be in the future, Fidan said, "Now, Hamas is a legitimate political party like other political parties under the State of Palestine. It is a resistance movement. It is a movement that has to find itself in an armed struggle because there is an occupation. Now, in the future of Gaza, the Palestinian Authority may come, someone may come, they may have an administration there. But as many observers and statesmen have also expressed, Hamas is not an organization consisting only of individuals. Hamas is an idea, Hamas is an ideology. Hamas is an ideology born of Israeli occupation. That is, today Hamas goes, something else emerges against the occupation. As long as the occupation continues, as long as this humiliation, this oppression continues, showing Hamas as the focal point is actually hiding the problem itself. The problem itself is the issue of keeping Palestinian lands under occupation. If the Palestinians have a state, if they have an area where they live within the '67 borders, and they say 'Despite this, let's attack Israel,' then the Palestinians are committing the greatest crime. But when they are under occupation, when they are deprived of all kinds of basic rights, what will these people do? Therefore, today Hamas goes, tomorrow another structure that is more resistant than Hamas, that will fight more, comes. That is why we as Turkey have been saying from the beginning: If Israel wants both its own security and the security of the region, it will accept the two-state solution. Regional countries, including Turkey, will come, and we will also help in this regard. If you are giving a state to a country, to a nation, you are giving its lands, you are giving its sovereignty, and despite that, it is committing aggression around, then we all come together and suppress that aggression. But now, a nation that is under occupation, humiliated for years. What should a nation that has no other choice but to die do?" he replied.

EVALUATION REGARDING THE CIVIL WAR IN SUDAN

In response to the question about whether there are concerns regarding the stability of Sudan and what the approach of Turkey, which is one of the main actors in Sudan, is to this situation, Fidan said, "In Sudan, unfortunately, the civil war is a bleeding wound of ours. Again, a scene we do not want to see in the Islamic world. That is, we see a scene where brothers kill each other, political instability prevails, and millions of people are displaced. Therefore, acting on the principles I mentioned at the beginning, we, as brotherly countries, must come together and stop this. Before we took action, we followed closely the process that Saudi Arabia started together with the US. We always prayed, we also contributed, I hope they stop the civil war as soon as possible. But at the point we have reached, the civil war continues at another stage. There are efforts underway on this issue, I hope it reaches a result. We are also trying to show the effort we can. This is a scene we do not want to see. Currently, millions of people are displaced. We are trying to send humanitarian aid to them. The Islamic world also has to look at this very closely," he said.

"THE CONSTRUCTIVE ROLE OF TURKEY'S FOREIGN POLICY IS VERY IMPORTANT"

Evaluating the comment of host el-Zafiri that Turkey's future is not to remain within Turkey's borders and that Turkish foreign policy has to work everywhere due to the influence of its historical identity, Minister Fidan said, "We have a Ministry of Foreign Affairs that currently has the third largest diplomatic mission in the world. In our foreign policy, we are working intensively to catch and develop certain cooperations in certain opportunity areas beyond our region, to which we are historically close. Now, especially South America has been a really important area of cooperation for us in recent years. The whole of Africa, Asia-Pacific countries, ASEAN countries. Historically, our areas of interest in these places were few. Now, by raising these even more, they are becoming places where we cooperate more, develop trade, and have cultural interaction. Our businessmen are also working here. We also have serious studies regarding world politics that we carry out with these countries. Especially in issues like the Palestinian issue, in issues that need to be reformed like the United Nations, our cooperation with these countries yields results. I actually think that the constructive role of Turkey's foreign policy is really very important. As long as our President is there, as long as we are there, I have always believed that this policy brings goodness to both our region and the world," he said.