Kemal Okuyan speaks to 12punto: 'The changing of maps is to the detriment of the poor'

TKP General Secretary Kemal Okuyan made assessments regarding the current agenda on the 12punto YouTube channel. While stating that the AKP government can only be defeated with a strong republican social accumulation, he provided important analyses regarding developments in Syria, the competition between the US and China, the situation in Europe, and the political landscape in Turkey.

Okuyan emphasized that after the overthrow of the Assad administration, a structure like HTS has no chance of governing a complex society and country like Syria. He stated that HTS cannot be a long-term power and that the jihadists' massacres against Alawites are accelerating the process of Syria's fragmentation.

Okuyan said the following:

“A structure like HTS has no chance of governing a complex society and country like Syria. I am not just saying it cannot ensure unity; it has no chance of governing in the long term. HTS is not a structure that can be a government in this sense; it is a complex coalition. Therefore, no matter how much they try to transform it—and they are trying to do so to a certain extent—I do not think HTS was designed as a permanent administration even by the forces that brought HTS to power. As for the recent events, these massacres actually started before HTS entered Damascus, or they continued during the 14-15 years of civil war in Syria. These are very sad things; people are being massacred, but this is not a new phenomenon. Of course, these events were happening after HTS took control in Damascus, but the latest wave has expanded the scale significantly. It has moved it to another dimension.

The Middle East geography is, unfortunately, a geography accustomed to massacres; look at what we experienced in Gaza. Unfortunately, tens of thousands of Palestinians were massacred, and there is no proper reaction. In the case of Syria, there is a uniqueness: these massacres were also committed during the Assad era. The Western media reported on the facts regarding the crimes committed by the Syrian regime, the Assad administration—in quotation marks or truly—by magnifying them. But they published the actions and massacres of the jihadists only when it suited them. In these latest events, there is a development: these were covered in the Western press. That is, news came out that Arab Alawites are being massacred. Why did it come out? Because they were in a hurry. They were going to exert pressure on the Shara administration in Syria to enter into a dialogue with the Druze and the Kurdish region and to make an agreement. Indeed, there was such an atmosphere: if these massacres had continued and Shara or HTS had not entered into an agreement, they would likely have been brought to the agenda of the United Nations Security Council. It had already reached that point. This means there are powers using these massacres as a tool.”

'NO MATTER HOW MUCH THEY POLISH IT, THEY CANNOT GOVERN SYRIA'

Kemal Okuyan expressed that the AKP's efforts to legitimize HTS will remain fruitless. He continued his words as follows:

"For us, it is this: one must stand against these massacres, whoever it may be. But there is another problem here. Right next to us in Syria, an organization that says 'I will govern this country on religious foundations' and declares this openly in the draft constitution it has made is currently in power. Let the AKP do whatever it wants; it cannot legitimize this organization. Let them apply whatever polish they want, let them dress it in whatever outfit they want. This geography, our reality, will eventually vomit out the existence of this organization. That is, they cannot govern Syria. Therefore, they may suppress some people for a year or two with these massacres, but they cannot gain the ability to govern.

Currently, HTS is an organization that can be used by many countries. Israel is using it, the US is using it. Now Turkey says, 'we also have contact.' That is the AKP's claim. It exists, we already know that. It is not even clear in which direction Turkey is trying to use it. If they have this in their minds: 'we will support HTS, we will polish it a bit, we will put a jacket on it. We will make it a bit more moderate. With this, we will both protect, develop, and strengthen Turkey's interests there economically, and we will suppress the Kurdish region,' if they think this, it is a fantasy. What they can do with HTS is to accelerate the fragmentation of Syria. I am saying it very clearly, and it is heading in that direction."

'A DARKER PERIOD HAS OPENED FOR SYRIA'

Okuyan emphasized that the agreement between the Kurdish administration in Syria, the SDF, and the Damascus administration is full of uncertainties and does not represent the unity of Syria, but rather the legitimization of a fragmented structure. He said the following:

"Now a daily statement comes from the AKP, 'it is on the right track, this agreement is very gratifying,' etc. You cannot read the future of Syria with such daily positions and daily statements. For example, an agreement was signed between the Kurdish region or the SDF and HTS the other day. Everyone said 'as we wanted,' and the AKP made similar statements. Interestingly, the Kurdish administration made similar statements. 'We are very pleased,' they said. An agreement that everyone is pleased with means uncertainty.

When you look at the agreement, there is nothing in it. Or rather, it shows this: a very difficult process will begin. Because the articles of the agreement are extremely vague. Therefore, there is nothing that can be explained with such daily positions and developments. But let me say this: unfortunately, there is a trend towards the fragmentation of Syria. We are not fragmentation fetishists; that is, our whole concern is not that Syria should not be fragmented. We are thinking about the future of the people in Syria. We think that the plunder and looting of Syria should be prevented. But the way for this has been opened.

HTS is not a will that can reverse this process. The AKP is blatantly imposing something on us, on our citizens, by distorting the facts. It is not true. The power currently controlling Damascus in today's Syria cannot ensure the unity of Syria. It cannot defend the interests of all the different ethnic communities in Syria, the fragmented Syrian society, and we are talking about an organization that could lead Syria towards bloodier reckonings. Therefore, I say unfortunately, a darker period has opened for Syria right now.”

'THE START OF MAPS CHANGING IS TO THE DETRIMENT OF THE POOR'

Okuyan stated that Turkey is making a huge mistake by carrying its own Kurdish issue into a regional context. Emphasizing that a country's security will be ensured by giving confidence to its people, Okuyan stated that the Kurdish issue cannot be solved by squeezing it into the heading of terrorism.

Okuyan conveyed that the idea of not leaving the Kurds in the region to Israel and the idea of a Turkish-Kurdish alliance are being voiced, but he said that this alliance is a difficult process and that other powers are also involved.

He continued his words as follows:

“What was mainly implied in Bahçeli's speech was 'important developments are about to happen in Syria, and we need to take precautions.' We were also sensing that important developments would happen in Syria. That is, a process that could lead to a change of government would begin. It developed faster than everyone anticipated. In the future, we will have a clearer idea about what the factors that caused this acceleration were.

The issue is this: warding off the threat. Words like this were also used there by some government circles: 'Why should we leave the Kurds, as an important power, an important community in the region, to Israel?' This was expressed by more than one person in different contexts, and this started to be written and drawn a lot: 'If Turkey draws the Kurds in the region to its side—where some assume their guardianship—and spoils Israel's game, it will become the most important power in the region,' these were said.

The start of political maps changing in the region, the blurring or changing of borders—all of these are, in the end, to the detriment of the poor. This is very clear. And it paves the way for very bloody wars. Now it can be said that, well, blood is already being shed constantly in Syria and Iraq. True, worse will come. This is a dangerous process.

The relationship of the Kurdish administration in Syria, the SDF, with the central administration in Syria, the agreement, and the reactions from Turkey regarding this—if there is this in their minds: 'Let the Kurds melt themselves within this new political reality in Syria. In return, let Turkey assume the guardianship of the Kurdish population economically and politically.' This is the strategy of the AKP government. This is very difficult. That is, in today's picture in Syria, the probability of the Kurdish population, or the Druze, or the Alawites surrendering themselves to the authority of HTS and then drawing a roadmap by trusting Turkey's weight on HTS is zero. This will not happen. Therefore, the agreement full of uncertainties signed between the Damascus administration or, let's say, Mazloum Abdi and Shara, does not mean the unity of Syria, but actually the gradual legitimization of a fragmented structure in Syria.”

'IF NEO-OTTOMANISM IS TO BE RESURRECTED, WE NEED TO SIT DOWN AND QUESTION IT'

“If Turkey says, 'I do not recognize this process, I will not allow a separate structure here,' what will it do? That is, you will recognize as legitimate an organization that has been accepted all over the world as a jihadist terrorist organization in Damascus, you will say about that organization's massacres that 'these massacres are a reckoning with the old regime,' and then you will say, 'I do not want a Kurdish formation here,' and let's say by military methods. This means Turkey will start to be discussed.

We have been pointing out this trap for years. Turkey already made a huge mistake by carrying its own Kurdish issue into a regional context. A country's problem is solved within its own borders. A country's security is ensured by giving confidence to its people. The people trust a government, and that government trusts the people. This is the most important condition of security. But for years, this issue was squeezed into a terrorism heading, and now it is being tried to be solved again through the terrorism heading. What is being said? 'A Turkey without terrorism.' Who could object to this? Well, what is the content of the issue, what are you filling it with?

A solution must have a subject. If that subject is Islamism; because this is being said, it is being voiced. If it is desired that the approach of the government in Damascus, which says 'we will govern this country with Sharia rules' and prepares its draft constitution accordingly, should dominate the entire region; if Neo-Ottomanism is to be resurrected, we need to sit down and question it.”

'THERE IS A SERIOUS STRUGGLE WITHIN THE US'

Okuyan stated that there is no longer a single US and that different tendencies in the country affect the world. He emphasized that Trump's radical moves and policies are within a strategy and that he should not be underestimated. He stated that Trump's goal is to prevent the US from losing its world leadership and to prevent it from falling behind China economically.

He said the following:

“There is no longer a single US. The US is still the country sitting at the top of the imperialist world. Okay, it is experiencing a hegemony crisis perhaps, but it is still the most powerful country. The reckonings and different tendencies within this country affect the whole world. That is, when we look, there are different tendencies in Germany as well, there are in England, there are in Turkey. There are also within the bureaucracy. But when it happens in the US, things change because it reflects on the whole world. Once, in a country like the US, yes, when you look, the question can be asked: 'Does this huge country with so many resources bring Trump to power?' But once, we need to know this: similar characters are already coming to power all over the world.

Secondly, Trump came for the second time, which means there is both an important power behind him and he was able to provide a protection area for himself. Yes, they tried to kill Trump, but they couldn't. I don't know what will happen tomorrow. That is, there is a serious struggle within the US. Then we need to think about this: what is the source of this struggle?

The source of the struggle is this: there is a segment that makes a lot of money by risking the United States losing its world leadership or its leadership within the imperialist world in the long run. Because if the US continues this way, it will lose its world leadership to China. Everyone says this very clearly, and it is not far off. A segment in the US has taken action to reverse this course of the United States. That is, they are exhibiting a will that will prevent the US from falling behind China economically.

The US was compensating for its economic loss with other things—interventions here and there, etc.—at the expense of huge debts and huge expenditures to keep the world system in its hands. Trump will not give up on these interventions, but Trump is currently intervening in the economic system that has started to work against the US in the world. He is making serious interventions.”

'CHINA HAS GAINED VERY SERIOUS POSITIONS BY STANDING ON THE SIDELINES IN CONFLICTS'

The TKP General Secretary stated that China has gained serious achievements by standing on the sidelines in conflicts and that Russia has also become economically dependent on China after the Ukraine War. He drew attention to Trump's strategy of containing China. He said the following:

“When we look at this in terms of China's strategy, it is an innovation. Because China has almost never interfered in all the conflict areas in the world and has always won. After the invasion of Iraq, what is expected? It is expected that the power that invades Iraq will collapse on Iraq. The US collapsed, but China entered. Something happened in Afghanistan; currently, the most influential power in the Afghan economy is China.

When you look, China has gained very serious positions by standing on the sidelines in all conflicts, perhaps without participating in direct interventions. It did not give very open support to Russia in the Ukraine War. It was not part of the sanctions against Russia, yes. It said this: 'We respect the sovereignty of every country. It said the territorial integrity of Ukraine,' but when we look, after the Ukraine War, Russia has become economically dependent on China in many respects.

Is there a mutual interdependence? Yes. Does China need Russian energy? Yes. But currently, there are Chinese goods everywhere in Russia. When we look at all these places—Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, Caucasian countries, the former Soviet Republics that Russia sees as its own sphere of sovereignty—China's influence has increased a lot. Trump's strategy is to stop this process, and he is making moves in this direction. He doesn't say Panama for nothing, because he almost pushed China out of the Panama Canal.”

'THE US MAY ENTER A STRIKING SOCIAL AND POLITICAL CRISIS'

“Trump is acting with a strategy regarding all trade routes, energy sources, and energy routes. Also, with high customs walls, he is trying to ensure that the US enters a re-industrialization process.

Here, of course, everyone will be harmed by all of this, relatively. Because those companies never lose money in life. Because they are very large companies. But one segment does not want this. One segment was in favor of the continuation of the old order. Perhaps Trump is giving an important adjustment to the US for a temporary period. He is trying to give an adjustment that should not be underestimated. We will see where this goes, but 'Trump is a madman, someone who doesn't know what he is doing'—it is not like that at all. He is acting with a system. He is implementing these policies with a style unique to that system. The reason is also very clear: what protects Trump is also his social support.

Trump dancing on stage is very valuable for the millions of people behind him. That is why it is becoming more difficult for the other side to defeat Trump every passing day. He is leaning on a quite fanatical social base. How far will this go? This struggle may turn into a compromise. Because the anti-Trump capital circles, the big monopolies, are also very powerful. They also have a social base. Or the film may break. The United States may enter a striking social and political crisis to an extent we have never foreseen or cannot estimate today.”

'THE CRISIS HIT EUROPE, WHICH IS ASSUMED TO BE THE STRONGEST IN CAPITALISM'

Okuyan stated that Europe is in a deep economic crisis and that the Ukraine War has deepened this crisis. He expressed that Europe's past rhetoric of being the "continent of democracy and freedoms" is left behind and that it now wants to take part in the scramble for the world.

He continued his words as follows:

“Everyone has been saying for years that Turkey's most important export item is its ground force. There is no huge mistake in this. Turkey also used this a lot in the past. It used it against the US, it used it against NATO. Everyone knows that the Turkish army is an important instrument in Turkey's foreign policy, especially in terms of ground force. But Europe already has important problems. Its population is aging. There is another serious problem created by the immigrant population. They cannot take all of that immigrant labor force under arms, not all of it, but a significant part of it. Because their status is not suitable for this. And in a real sense, there is a shortage of soldiers in Europe.

Therefore, whether it is within NATO or Europe's own—I will use the expression I am very uncomfortable with these days, let it be a bit ironic—they invented a concept called 'security architecture' and are using it. Actually, this did not come from Turkish but from foreign languages into Turkish, but it makes the arms race look cute. When you say security architecture, you understand something aesthetic; nothing aimed at killing human life can be aesthetic. But that thing they call security architecture cannot leave Turkey out. This is a fact, therefore, the arguments the AKP makes here have a real basis. But here, one needs to pay attention to these: a Europe that has completely broken away from the US—it is too early for these. There is friction right now, but it is not easy. It is not easy for the US to leave Europe either.

Secondly, the US wants to solve its problems with Russia to a certain extent. Not completely, Russia is the same. There is a tremendous distrust towards the US in the bureaucracy of the Russian state. But on the other hand, if the Russian state has a strategy—which it does under the Putin administration—it is based on reaching an agreement with the US. Even in the harshest periods of the Ukraine War, Russia acted with an approach like 'one day we will reach an agreement with the US, we have to reach an agreement.' That is, the Russian state's strategy in the international arena is not based on permanent hostility with the US.

As long as they receive guarantees that there will be no interference in Russia's internal affairs or encirclement in the US's sphere of sovereignty—what is that sphere of sovereignty? The Russian Empire before the October Revolution of 1917 or the region where the Soviet Union, the former Soviet Republics, were—they will establish good relations with the US, and we see that they will. The Trump administration is also creating a ground for this. Under these conditions, a Europe that has built all its rhetoric on Russian hostility and the Russian threat does not seem very logical. After the US, Europe also needs to lower this tension a bit with Russia. We will see this. But the problem here is this: all this arms literature serves another purpose. And that is this: there is a very deep crisis that the capitalist world has entered right now. And this crisis, interestingly, hit the continent that is assumed to be the strongest in capitalism: Europe.”

'TURKEY'S APPROACH TO THE EU HAS NO BENEFIT TO US'

Kemal Okuyan stated that Turkey is an important instrument for Europe with its military power and that it is not pride-inducing for some circles to say that Turkey is in need of the EU. He argued that Europe does not care about Turkey's democracy problems and that the stances the EU took after the Ukraine War contradict its understanding of freedom. He stated that Turkey's approach to the EU in this respect has no benefit, but rather harm.

He said the following:

“Europe has been more than affected by the rise of China, Trump's moves, and the Ukraine War. And it continues to be affected. Currently, there is a serious blockage in the industries that were the engine power of Europe in the past. For example, the German automotive industry is one of the very basic locomotive industries. There is only one way for this industry to overcome the blockage it is experiencing: to make a transformation to the arms industry, or more, because an automotive or large iron and steel trust, holding in Germany, is always intertwined with the arms industry. But what happened now? Volkswagen made a statement in the past few days. What did it announce: 'We will switch to tank production.'

Armament is both an economic need and a need for Europe to be assertive in a new scramble for the world. There is a war of sharing right now. That is why Europe is no longer the continent of democracy and freedoms that some people told us 20 years ago—it was a lie even then—but Europe's current basic philosophy is to participate in the scramble for the world with force as soon as possible because they have fallen a bit behind.

Here, they can become stronger by drawing Turkey to their side, yes. This is also not a feat. I am not proud of some political powers or academics, experts, whatever, in Turkey coming out and saying that Europeans are in need of Turkey. Why should I be? Why should I be happy that Europe needs Turkey's ground force, manpower in a bloody reckoning? War means all of these. A person is not happy about war.

They decorate this, 'security, Europe security architecture'; what is that security architecture to the poor of Turkey? These are things that are harbingers of bloody scramble wars. We will be a part of this; what will happen in return? Nothing. There is nothing that will benefit our people. But yes, it is clear that negotiations are being made on this issue. While all this is happening, our opposition circles say, 'let the European Union also bring the issue of Turkey's democracy to the table,' etc. Does the European Union care about Turkey's democracy, freedom? They themselves are already heading in the exact opposite direction.

Let it not be forgotten, everyone was making fun of Trump, saying what kind of man he is, but the European Union, after the Ukraine War, banned Dostoevsky, Tchaikovsky—that is, artists, literature people, musicians who have been etched into the historical memory of humanity and have nothing to do with today's Russia. Which democracy, which freedom?

We are talking about a European Union that can barbarize to this extent, and we are talking about a European Union that currently criticizes the United States for sabotaging the war in Ukraine and has nothing to do with peace. That is why Turkey's approach to the European Union in this respect has no benefit to us; it has harm.”

Okuyan said that artificial intelligence and technological developments will lead to harsh reckonings in the world, but that poor laborers are being left out of this process. He stated that the working class is being forced to choose between the alternatives presented to it, but that these choices do not offer a real solution. He emphasized that the fundamental problem of the world and Turkey is exploitation and that unemployment and poverty can only be solved by eliminating exploitation. He emphasized that capitalism is dragging humanity towards extinction and that humanity should bring the ideal of a classless, exploitation-free society back to the agenda.

Okuyan stated that in Turkey, similarly, the people are being forced into wrong choices and that the current opposition does not offer a real alternative. Reiterating that the AKP can only be defeated with a strong republican social accumulation, Okuyan stated that soft transitions and normalization rhetoric will not fix the destruction.

He continued his words as follows:

“They couldn't get rid of the AKP for 20-something years with the 'lesser of two evils.' They are still putting the same thing in front of us. As the TKP, both with our project on a world scale, but primarily in Turkey, our duty is that we will have a very harsh reckoning. I underline it. We also don't have time. We will accuse everyone who comes to us in Turkey and says, 'but now let's unite our forces against Erdoğan,' of fraud. Because they are exploiting the weariness, entrapment, fear, and helplessness of our people, our citizens. Let me say it very clearly. They are all Erdoğan merchants. They are political brokers trying to benefit from the reactions in society towards Erdoğan. We will deal with them.

We have been saying from the beginning that the AKP is not just any party, but a mission movement. Now, more than 20 years have passed, and they have come a long way. It is impossible for any political actor who has no idea about the class-ideological background of what brought the AKP to this point or kept it in power for such a long time, or who makes wrong evaluations, to reverse this destruction.

The Turkish society has been condemned to a political understanding that consists of thinking that politics is done when a ballot box is placed in front of it, making posts via social media, and watching television. This is not the fault of our citizens, our people. The society was pushed towards this in the name of fighting the AKP.

The Turkey of the AKP can only and only be defeated with a rational republican social accumulation that has strong goals. The destruction created is so great that soft transitions, normalization, etc., this will not work. One should be afraid of the words 'sharp turns.' What I mean here is that you cannot reverse or fix the destruction of the AKP era by leaning on a social dynamic that has strong political and ideological content; without this, by rolling up white shirts, getting on buses, and talking by saying 'I, I.' Therefore, it is zero probability.”

'COULD TURKEY'S NATIONAL STRUGGLE HAVE BEEN FOUGHT WITH THIS MINDSET?'

TKP General Secretary Kemal Okuyan stated that the current opposition's stances on secularism, NATO, and the EU are no different from the AKP's. He said the following:

“Plus, do they have the intention for this? No. How do we understand this? Because what are the features that make the AKP the AKP? For example, as soon as the AKP came to power, it left Turkey face to face with a very heavy privatization attack. It is impossible for a political mentality that thinks those privatizations are a requirement of economic science in terms of its economic program to have a reckoning with Erdoğan or to have a reckoning with the AKP era. The issue is neither the 'gang of five' nor anything else. Turkey's very large capital groups currently seized the businesses that belong to our people thanks to those privatization policies.

What the opposition understands from secularism right now has nothing to do with what we understand from secularism or the understanding of secularism that was dominant during the founding of the Republic. For example, the government circles that we have criticized many times bring a definition like 'this secularism is respect for all beliefs.' We have said many times that respect for beliefs or that people's freedom of belief and worship is a fundamental human right, and this right cannot be touched. This is separate. The definition of secularism has nothing to do with this. Secularism is the removal of religion from the political and public sphere. It is that simple. Is there an opposition that can say this right now? No, on the contrary.

Our opposition is pro-NATO; sometimes they can even be more pro-NATO than the AKP. They want the cooperation with imperialist countries in Europe to increase. They are more willing to be part of what is called the European security architecture. Therefore, for the compensation of these things we have experienced recently—which also has a past, those destructions—I am not saying Turkey before 1980 was very good, but there is a systematic counter-revolutionary wave that started on September 12. To reverse this whole process, to be able to make a leap forward, it is necessary to have a clear program.

There is no such program. If people have been made so helpless to the point of deciding based on this: 'we look, oh what a nice man, a man of the people,' for this or that person, 'this one will win against Erdoğan,' I do not want to believe that the Anatolian people are this helpless, and I do not accept this, I reject it. Because sometimes we also face this very often: 'you are right, but please, why don't you support this person?'

Since a very large part of the people who say this to us also do not fail to show respect to Mustafa Kemal, or if they constantly commemorate the War of Independence in Turkey, that period; the founding of the Republic, then let them sit down and think. Could Turkey's national struggle have been fought with this mindset? Could it have been fought with this approach? Let me say it very clearly: it could not have been fought. With this dehumanization, with this feeling of helplessness, with this cowardice; this 'lesser of two evils' or the reverse is also true, yes, 'the better of two evils.' It makes no difference. Turkey cannot reach a smooth path with this.”

News Source: 12punto